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 Post Posted: Friday, 06. March 2015, 10:49:15 
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Hi Rob!

As I know that every class has many way to build and so does Seraph. Int Seraph WAS a very strong class with powerful skills and he was nerfed (I can understand this) but it's seem he was nerfed too much.

Int Seraph now is very weak at single enemy fighting. His skill maybe good at AOE but they're so bad at 1 vs 1 fight. Angel dance can be used effectively with flying enemy (he can stand under the enemy so that his enemy gets hit alot more) but when he fights with land enemies (1 vs 1), the damage that he can deal with the skill is reduced alot. How about Intervention ? It's totally bad for 1 vs 1 fighting.

I know that "we can not ask for everything" but does he need to be so good at AOE and so bad at 1vs1 ? Could it be more balanced ? not so good at AOE and not so bad at 1vs1 ?

It's a big fun when I know that 1.34c ver is coming and I hope that lots of things will be changed !

Thanks for spending time reading my thread!


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 Post Posted: Friday, 06. March 2015, 15:45:06 
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Hiho,

well I had a plan in my mind which was following a certain sceme:

- Str-Seraph: ultra-tank
- Agi-Seraph: bad vs masses, decent vs single oponents
- Int-Seraph: decent vs masses, bad vs single oponents

So it is intelligent to find a balanced set of attributes in order to be a tanky, mass slaying, killing professional. xD

I have no plans so far what I really want to change in the upcoming v1.34c.

Regards,
Robbepop


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 Post Posted: Saturday, 07. March 2015, 00:14:21 
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Well, you forgot to balance down Seraph's defensive capabilities (no offence), so now agi Seraphs can tank, and with Righteous Fury, they also have relatively high AoE burst dps (which is more than enough for creeps, and bosses do not come in packs (yet)). And that is not a balanced set of attributes at all.

Non-well-composed on-the-fly suggestion: Reduce the damage for RF depending on agility and increase the int bonus so it does not become a free AoE for agi builds and so it is more viable for int builds, that often lack attack speed (and even with Phase Gloves and otherwise perfect (or close to perfect) items, it maxes out around 1,4-1,5k dps, including bash of light, in a low survivability build, according to a quick calculation).

And of course, as I have said a few times whereelse, 20k EHPS is way too much even for an ultra tank, so lower the defensive capabilities.

I believe that such changes, while irrelevant to str builds and beneficial to int builds, would nerf agi builds quite a bit and bring the balance closer to your ideal.

Edit1: Important mistake on my part. It's actually 20k EHPS, assuming, that hits during adduction deal exactly 6516 damage. The healing done by hits, that deal less, is ignored, and adduction is considered as invulnerability. In reality, adduction also means full HP by the end of the duration, no matter how low the HP were before that. Thus, it could also be considered to be an additional 3889 average EHPS (3 times turn to full 52509 EHP in 40,5 seconds). This technically also changes the other considerations. In other words, when invulnerability by constant full HP is involved, defensive capabilities cannot be accurately expressed in average EHPS.

A more accurate way to put it:
Three time-damage windows between invulnerability every 40,5 seconds:
96249 damage in 3,5 seconds, 143519 damage in 8 seconds, and 143519 damage in 8 seconds.
So, in EHPS, the first time window has 27499, and the other two 17939.

Between these total of 19,5 seconds, the Seraph cannot be killed by physical damage, unless the dps of hits over 6516 reaches 11811, plus whatever HP the Seraph has left.
In other words, not only are the hits considered for this reduced by 6516 damage each, and not only do hits lower than that heal the seraph for the remaining amount, but also, the Seraph will regenerate 11811 EHP per second independently from his Adduction during its duration. A full HP Seraph in this condition turning on Adduction would need to recieve 99754 damage in four seconds by hits reduced by 6516 damage each.

TL;DR: Seraph is (while possessing slightly less EHPS than I remembered, still) undeniably immortal in this map. And yet people find it unreasonable, whenever I suggest 50k dps bosses with 20k hits.

edit2:

Almost everything I have said before was a ridiculous understatement. It turns out, that Guardian Angel is affected by Spellheal and therefore the windows are not 3,5 seconds and two times 8 seconds every 40,5 seconds, but rather 3,4 seconds every 20 seconds. The Seraph is vulnerable exactly 17% of the time (and that is one Seraph alone, not two Seraphs buffing one, who tanks all the time invulnerably).

In this time, the Seraph has to recieve 98244 damage. That is 28895 EHPS. I had made my case before, but it should be obvious, that something needs to be done about Guardian Angel as well.

I see the point of a defensive ability, that relies on spellheal rather than strength so that int Seraphs using spellpower could use it as well as actual tanks. However, being invulnerable to physical damage over half of the time with just one ability is inacceptable. I suggest, that it could rely on str or int or both so as to make it viable to both builds again, while reducing the overall potential concerning multiplicative spellheal bonus.
Then again, even this may end up being overpowered. A possibility would be to deny self targeting, but that would again also deny survivability for int Seraphs.

At this point, I do not see many viable options besides removing this ability and replacing it with a damaging one for int builds.

edit3:

No news about abilities, but I have figured out, that Adduction and Guardian Angel do not have to be used immediately after one another. This separates the 3,4 second time window into two 1,7 second time windows, also enabling the Seraph to use Blessed Nova in both windows. Moreover, not only adduction will heal to full, but there will also be enough time to heal to full during the Guardian Angel duration. Hence, 8055 more HP need to be damaged in total in that time.
This is a total of 17657 HP (not accounting for regular HP reg btw). Now such a Seraph has at least 378 armour, 386 with shirt, and 461 with shirt and full grace stacks, which is more than 90% damage mitigation, so more than 10 times as many EHP (180464, to be exact). In 3,4 seconds, that is 53077 per second.

As it turns out, my "ridiculous" suggestion of an enemy with 50k dps would actually almost be tankable by a single character with the current balance (my suggestion did include 20k damage hits, so a Seraph would recieve damage during adduction and the calculations would be slightly different, because the adduction time would be a negative number rather than the positive 5020HP; in any "realistic" scenario, Seraph can break the 50k EHPS mark... now I remember, why the 13335 EHPS of Priest were in fact not considered to be balanced).

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Last edited by PSYCHO[dkdc] on Thursday, 19. March 2015, 01:16:31, edited 4 times in total.

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 Post Posted: Saturday, 07. March 2015, 19:47:00 
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very nice suggestions! thanks! =)


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 Post Posted: Sunday, 08. March 2015, 05:58:08 
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Quote:

TL;DR: Seraph is (while possessing slightly less EHPS than I remembered, still) undeniably immortal in this map. And yet people find it unreasonable, whenever I suggest 50k dps bosses with 20k hits.



LoL

Is it really sooo bad?^^

Robbepop


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 Post Posted: Sunday, 08. March 2015, 15:08:36 
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Well, read the numbers. I doubt, that the regular incoming dps even goes as far as 10k, so if you were to halve Seraph's defensive capabilities (though I would suggest not starting so drastically), a well built Seraph could still tank everything with ease.

It is possible to tank large Dream World packs (15+ creeps) as a str / spellheal Priest without any teal items. With full gear, a Priest can reach 4479 HPS like that, but without all that, only around 2500 HPS, which is 6572 EHPS with 80 armour (I took the liberty the use the build with which I was first able to tank dream). Technically one might also consider the 4,5 second invulnerability by Blinding ray, but in this case too, it is capped by max HP. In other words, the average dps, that a Priest with that equipment can take, is 7627.

For the record, the maximum possible EHPS for Priest is 13335 (the advantage, that a Priest might have, would be withstanding spells because of higher HPS, however, there are no spell dps creeps or bosses).

Hence, I assume, that 7500 EHPS is enough for most things, and 10000 will definitely be enough for everything.


Rethinking the quick suggestion in this thread, I now remember my actual suggestion, that I have made a long time ago:
No need to severely nerf Seraph, but rather buff Priest and the offence of all enemies, at least in higher regions. This will encourage more group play.

Also, add more types of enemies, as in spell damage dps. Not only will this favour HPS builds over EHPS builds a bit more, but also the use of Spellres items, that are currently very neglegible outside PvP.

P.S.: Think about what I have not yet considered: Group play and cross-class skill dynamics. A Seraph can buff a tank up to 500-600 armour, and then this tank can recieve 4000 HPS healing from a Priest. Then you actually reach the dimensions of 50k EHPS and more (it is possible to buff a Seraph up to over 100k EHP).

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 Post Posted: Saturday, 05. December 2015, 15:11:53 
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hi there,

with all of the above in mind i came up with a quick solution that should both buff int seraph's survivability and (begin to) deal with strength/spellheal seraph's op'ness:

change guardian angel's duration to 2+0,5% int sec.

at 400 int the duration would be the same as before which can be reached and even surpassed by fully geared int seraphs (going full yolo on the int/spellheal you can reach a duration of 13,3 sec as opposed to the previous 11,4 sec).

a full strength/spellheal seraph however would get about 8,2 sec of guardian angel with the same gear as above.

feel free to make adjustments to or point out errors in my suggestion or calculations.

cheers,
freakingmad


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 Post Posted: Sunday, 20. December 2015, 20:50:17 
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freakingMad wrote:
hi there,

with all of the above in mind i came up with a quick solution that should both buff int seraph's survivability and (begin to) deal with strength/spellheal seraph's op'ness:

change guardian angel's duration to 2+0,5% int sec.

at 400 int the duration would be the same as before which can be reached and even surpassed by fully geared int seraphs (going full yolo on the int/spellheal you can reach a duration of 13,3 sec as opposed to the previous 11,4 sec).

a full strength/spellheal seraph however would get about 8,2 sec of guardian angel with the same gear as above.

feel free to make adjustments to or point out errors in my suggestion or calculations.

cheers,
freakingmad


I am not a profi about Seraph class but I suppose this idea can have a chance to live - I hope Robbepop will comment it.
Best regards,
Igrush

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 Post Posted: Monday, 21. December 2015, 00:33:11 
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hi there,

so, after recently trying an agi seraph i realised they also have great use for guardian angel at least in end game areas such as hell and dream world. now the above changes i suggested would nerf the seraph's agi builds which i don't think is necessary. therefore i have a small adjustment to my previous suggestion:

make the duration dependent on the higher value of either int or agi.

this would mean a duration of roughly 4-4,5 sec guardian angel for "normal" agi builds and maybe even the emergence of new viable builds like agi/spellpower (i haven't actually tried it yet so i don't know if it's already viable).

now i also think i found the int seraph's problem as a damage dealer:
they don't have a reliable way of dealing consistent or high burst damage.

while blessed nova is a nice aoe instant cast it does have 5 sec cd and sometimes needs to be used as heal.
phoenix strike is single target, has 6 sec cd and is normally used either for movement or the stun.
intervention deals nice aoe dmg but can be unreliable. it does have 50% uptime though so i think it's actually quite ok.
angel dance is also unreliable save for big groups/enemies and the cd is really high (15 sec) probably due to its spell immunity.

my suggestion (and i think it's far from perfect) would be to bring back energy ball/holy ground.

energy ball would replace intervention while holy ground would substitute roar of glory. i believe one or the other is enough to strengthen int seraph.

energy ball could scale like other aoe dot spells: lvl*(6 + 6%int) per sec
i thought maybe a duration of 10 sec and a 2 sec cd meaning up to 5 instances of energy ball totalling in 300 + 3*int dmg/sec at maybe 15*lvl mana cost per cast.

holy ground would have to have a healing aspect seeing as it replaces roar of glory. i thought it would probably need very high uptime (up to same duration as cd).
the scalings could be: lvl*(6 + 6% int) dmg/sec and lvl*(3 + 3% str) heal/sec at something like 5 sec duration and 8 sec cd at 20*lvl mana cost. this could then complement the seraphs other main dmg ability (e.g. intervention) while the strength seraph wouldn't lose out on a sustain skill.

tl;dr:

make my previously suggested guardian angel scale with agi if higher than int.
replace intervention with energy ball or roar of glory with holy ground to give int seraphs reliable dmg spells (buff them).

cheers,
freakingMad


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 Post Posted: Tuesday, 22. December 2015, 00:07:32 
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The numbers have to be tweaked in any case, but even so, I do not believe, that agility based builds need any further buffs. While this is not commonly in use or even known, agility Seraphs profit tremendously from spell damage through Blessing. Adding physical invulnerability to that simply cries for full agi builds, which will, simply said, faceroll everything.
I did not comment the change for int (even if the numbers seem too high as well), because int builds are generally weaker for Seraph.

My general judgement of Blessing Nova is, that its damage is slow. However, Energy Ball, which is ultimately a stackable Wall Of Light (it should have been obvious, that that was overpowered at start as well), will in most cases be either useless or overpowered.

A better way to improve Blessing Nova would be to make the healing optional in a way, so that damage output can be increased to a point comparable to int dps builds of other classes, but without reducing the cooldown of the heal to prevent the Seraph from being invincible.
The problem with that suggestion is, that such an ability would essentially be Woody Might.

An alternative would be to add an immolation toggle, which heals on activation (or deactivation or both; on deactivation it could heal dependent on the damage done, which then again would be similar to some of the Mentalist's effects), so that the general damage is higher, with an optional immediate damage on activation.

My third idea is to use the toggle, but instead use the toggle only for the heal, so as to "charge" the heal over 4-5 seconds of activation, but dealing damage on activating the toggle (so that healing stays little, if it is activated frequently, but damage increases).

I also like the current Roar Of Glory, as it supplies a buff, that is not restricted to a certain area, and thus useful in fights, that involve a lot of movement (e.g. Merati, depending on builds, and Cronos). Also, since its nerfs, it is not quite as overpowered as it used to be, and it is still useful as a regeneration ability for strength / spell heal tanks. Restricting the build's movements is another reason, why I am against Energy Ball as a replacement of Blessed Nova (instead of staying close to your balls, you actually have to move towards the enemy).

As for Intervention, I am trying it out right now, and while my preliminary results are not necessarily statistically relevant, I now have a rather good idea of how it works on average.
When the target is at the exact edge of the displayed AoE, it will not always be hit, and only on occasion it will be hit twice.
When it is closer to the centre, it is unlikely, but not impossible, that it will not be hit at all, but it will be hit 2-4 times in most cases.
When Intervention is aimed exactly at the target, I have observed only a single case of hitting 3 times, and not one of hitting 4 times. In many cases, it will hit 5 times, and sometimes 6 or 7.

That in mind, it deals about as much damage to a single stationary target as a regular spell with a 3 second cooldown would. Keep in mind, that this is the average, and the burst is actually twice as high (e.g. it should be easily enough to destroy the magic egg with one cast even without full gear or even at a lower level).
It may sound unreliable, but actually, what needs to be changed is the understanding of the ability. WarCraft 3 somewhat limits the possibilities to do that, but essentially, the dsiplayed AoE is simply not correct, because the damage is not spread out evenly, but rather concentrated in the middle.

If this ability is supposed to work as an AoE ability, I recommend to increase all AoEs. The problem with this fix is, that it then becomes even less reliable, because there is more room for the effects to spread in general. Otherwise, I find it to be relatively well balanced. Reducing the cooldown to 9 and increasing the manacost to 30 per level might be a decent change.

A quick test with Angel Dance reveals 4 hits on average when standing in regular melee range, and a full 10 hits when standing in close melee range (this is single target, of course). In close range, it hits once (but almost every time), from a longer range (about 400) a hit is not guaranteed.
What is interesting about this ability, is that it apparently depends on the initial facing. In general however, the effect is the same as Intervention, just much stronger. If it was somehow possible, I would recommend to slightly widen the AoE as the distance to the Seraph increases. As a single target spell, the dps is impressive (10 hits in 3 seconds: significantly faster than Fireball (6.6 hits)).

More reliable AoE burst for int Seraphs in general however does sound like a good ideal in general though, I simply do not believe, that these are the abilities, that limit it as much as you point out.

My idea for an alteration to a spell, that is truly lacking, when it comes to actual close range battles with a Seraph (which we have established to be the preferred method, see Blessed Nova and Angel Dance (not discussed Righteous Fury and Bash Of Light however work the same way)), is Phoenix Strike.
It is useful as a gap closer, but in fights with 10+ enemies, stunning and damaging one is a small difference, and there is also little movement to be expected.
However, precisely because of this difficulty to move while being in such combat, there could be a reward for moving nonetheless, such as an AoE instead of the single target damage when not hitting, or dependent on the distance travelled. This would again encourage high movement tactics, add some difficulty to a class, that otherwise has only high cooldown abilities, and supply reliable AoE for those, who learn to use it.

TL;DR:
Do not make Guardian Angel dependent on agility, or if you do, make its dependency very low (0.3% or less).

Make Blessing Nova into toggle, which damages on activation and heals on deactivation for an amount dependent on the time it was active (or see above for other suggestions, but this was my best idea imo).

Increase the average damage of Intervention by reducing the cooldown, but make its mana costs appropriate to its burst.

Increase the AoE Width of the Angel Dance Waves at higher distance if possible.

Add an Aoe to Phoenix Strike dependent on distance travelled or if it does not hit directly.


Edit1: Forgot to add Guardian Angel comment in tldr.

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