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 Post Posted: Thursday, 10. July 2014, 06:51:55 
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With the Earth Guardian specifically in mind, if you didn't want to tone down the current difficulty for melee classes too much, you could implement cooldowns with respect to time.

I.E the ability will trigger in the same way, but it can only do so X times in X seconds.

I would suggest three times in 10 seconds. That way, classes like the Ranger and Seraph should be able to use damage dealing spells, in combination with melee, in order to proc the ability three times, and use the remaining time to get it below the threshold.

I do imagine, however, that that would be quite difficult to code.

Alternatively, bosses could proc abilities after taking X amount of damage, regardless of time. This should hopefully add difficulty without completely breaking the fights for any particular class. Boss's regeneration may have to be increased to balance this, though.

Another idea could be every X times the boss autoattacks; easy to code, but that may end up making the fights even easier (The Earth Guardian, for example, you could kill as a ranger, while never once getting hit)

Just some ideas :) As much as I hate the idea of that boss getting in the way of the story (I play a lot of solo), I also really, really love the challenge.

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 Post Posted: Thursday, 10. July 2014, 18:21:36 
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The coding part does not seem too hard to me.

The simplest way, that comes to mind (it may not be the most efficient, I have just thought about it for a few seconds) would be to implement X timers counting to Y seconds and when the spell is cast more than X times (or X-1 depending on when you start to count) before any active timer reaches Y, the spell is disabled until it does.

An alternative would be to keep track of the points in time at which the spells are cast, and if these exceed a certain frequency within a set frame of time, the spell is disabled until the frequency is below the threshold again.

But these are just some ideas, how it could be realised.

Essentially, there does not seem to be a big difference between X casts in Y seconds and a genuine cooldown and a casting chance, concerning the result, of course, not the calculation. To clarify, this cooldown can actually still be lower than the spell's duration, so there is a sufficient number of possibilities to adjust balance in this system.

Basing it on autohits does not seem to be appropriate, as one of the main features of these spells is, that they are also being cast, while the boss is stunned.

Concerning the idea with damage, I assume, that you want to count the damage taken after a spell is being cast and having the boss cast the spell again, when a certain value is exceeded? If I understand this correctly, the only difference is, that bosses might cast more often, because they take more damage than they lose as HP because of their regeneration. If you planned to substract the regeneration from this, I do not see any difference to the system as of 1.34.


As far as I have understood the Askalor code in general-discussion-f2/help-the-goh-rpg-v1-35-development--t1892.html , the setup is for the boss to have a chance to cast spells each second, if enemies are in range, and a triggered cooldown during which the spell cannot be cast again. In addition, certain alterations to the spell take place with decreasing HP of the boss.

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 Post Posted: Saturday, 12. July 2014, 20:10:09 
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First of all, thank-you for taking the time to read my last post :D

The idea with the spells proccing after taking X damage is an attempt to...well, "smooth out," and scale the boss fights, I suppose.

Basically, to defeat a boss monster, you need to check two boxes: Have sufficient defensive stats (or skill) in order to survive, and, be able to deal sufficient damage to eventually bring it's HP down to zero.

In the current system, unless you're using very high damage spells on huge cooldowns, the boss's hp is constantly going down. Thus, the (standard) boss's abilities will proc only three times, at 75%, 50% and 25% hp, unless as mentioned earlier you allow them to regenerate past these points.

You fall into one of two categories:
1. Will eventually kill the monster
2. Will not eventually kill the monster

What we are currently missing, is shades of meaning for each condition; the first one specifically.

The sentient point here, is that regardless of how fast you one of the bosses triggered in this fashion, whether the fight takes you 5 seconds or 5 minutes, the spell will only be triggered 3 times. (Although occasionally one or two extra times)

However, with the X damage taken system, boss ability usage would scale with how the fight is progressing.

This could also be achieved by having a timed cooldown, and the boss having a % chance to activate his ability every second it is "up", however, that does not take into account the situation where you can deal enough damage (Such as with a team of 4+ players) that the boss will die in under 10 seconds - he may never activate the ability in this case.

Take for example a simplified situation where a boss has 10,000 health, and regenerates 100 hp per second, and will activate his ability each time he takes 1,000 damage.

- If you deal 80 damage per second, you will never kill the boss, but the boss WILL EVENTUALLY use an ability, and will continue to do so until you stop dealing damage to it.
- If you deal 150 damage per second, it will take you 200 seconds (3 and one third minutes) to kill the boss, and the boss will activate the ability 30 times (as you have dealt a total 30,000 damage to it)
- If you deal 1,000 damage per second, it will only take you 11 seconds to kill the boss, but the boss will activate his ability 11 times. (And possibly in doing so punish you for taking it so lightly - take the dragon Asura, for example - 11 firestorms? Ouch!)
-Any additional damage per second (over 1,000), the boss will activate it the minimum 10 times.

Basically, this will make the boss fights feel more "Epic" - and give meaning to the situations where you tick the boxes of:
1. Have enough utility to survive, and
2. Deal enough damage to kill it.
But, don't have enough damage that the boss fight is over quickly.

This is clearly evident in the case of tanky champions. They may eventually be able to kill the boss, although the boss will not be able to deal enough damage to kill them.

In this situation, you are literally just standing there watching the boss's HP very slowly go down to one of these % markers - and not interacting with the boss at all until this point - at which point you perform the required action (In the case of the Earth Guardian, deal enough spell damage to it to stop it proccing again), and then you go back to watching.

My idea in this case would provide an additional level of interaction - you have to be engaged with the game, because you never know exactly when the boss will active it's ability (although after a while you will gain a rough idea, you will still have to be paying attention)

Also, in the specific case of the Earth Guardian, it would solve the problem of Physical Damage heroes not being able to kill it - as all you have to do is deal more damage then the Boss's regen (factoring in the stun time) and you will EVENTUALLY kill it, even if you have to proc that stun 100 times in order to do so (In the case of low physical damage, physical damage champions. I.E. A solo tank).

Basically, it's extending the current triggering paradigm in order to cover all situations.

Perhaps a "perfect" solution would be to give the ability a cooldown, which is reduced by X seconds every time the boss takes X damage. (In order to preserve the quality of the bossfight)

Obviously, the values for how much damage it takes before it actives it's ability, as well as HP regeneration would need some testing to balance correctly. (And would be something I would be glad to contribute to)

Keep in mind, I am specifically talking about the boss abilities that are activated by a check on that boss's percent health. I am aware that a lot of skills are not currently activated in this fashion - Although the Earth Guardian, which is the topic of this thread, is triggered in this way :P

If you managed to make it all the way to the end of this post, Congratulations! You're awesome ^-^

I just felt that this idea deserved some additional clarification :)

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 Post Posted: Saturday, 12. July 2014, 21:16:29 
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I am sorry to stop you so quickly, and even though I might support the idea of guaranteed casts and more casts with less damage, this system will actually require even less interaction in case of autohitting tanky classes fighting Xi-Pasi Mu. The interaction is currently required to burst over a threshold. If this theshold is not activated more than once, because regeneration is not taken into account, people with such builds would not need to take any action.

Instead, it would result in builds like high intelligence Elemental Mages being rooted almost permanently, because they burst out so much damage.

While this may seem like a reasoned balancing measure, it contradicts the general paradigm of encouraging an active playstyle based on abilities rather than slow autohit builds, which, provided they deal more damage than the regeneration of the boss, will then be even easier.


I do not know, whether you have seen the Cronos fight. As of 1.34, it is the best Bossfight in the map, because it requires moving, beating a high regeneration, and has consistent spellcasting and an increasing difficulty. Calling it an increasing difficulty may be arguable, but the fact is, that low AoE builds have trouble keeping track of the summons as well as dealing sufficient damage to the boss to eventually bring him down.

Both approaches with either high defence or high damage are challenging, and using a large number of players to defeat him provide an additional complication due to shortage of known spots to hide from his channeling.

Now from what I understood, you would like to "punish" those, who burst down a boss very quickly. I have thought about it, and I see a better idea for a hybrid system rather than reducing the cooldown by dealing damage to the boss. The idea would be to use two separate systems. One constantly lashing out damage, and one to provide additional difficulty to the fight as damage is being dealt.

In any case, the damage-dealt counter should have rather rare procs to not disable high damage builds entirely. In addition, while damage stops such as the Wrath of the Flames stun can be tied to these damage counters, reducing mobility of the players should not be tied to it, as it not only encourages a less active playstyle, but also either a high defence or such high burst, that the boss does not reach the character at all before dying (as opposed to the current relatively popular hit-and-run strategies, which would disappear with high dps in such a system).

I hope, that I have made my point, and not lost it somewhere on the way, leaving, whoever reads this, confused.


P.S.: Of course I have read your entire post, I have written longer ones myself :D

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 Post Posted: Saturday, 12. July 2014, 22:12:34 
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While I personally like the level of challenge Xi-Pasi Mu currently provides (as with my ranger for example, I take skills specifically for it, and that I might not use otherwise), isn't the whole idea that people are finding it almost impossible? (And, the interaction/challenge you currently have with that boss is more mathematical and mental, rather then, I don't know, engaging, if that makes any sense)

And, the idea is not to "punish" people for killing bosses quickly (Hmm, or maybe it is...) - Basically, I would like to gently nudge players towards a more balanced playstyle, or at least, offset the ease of defeating bosses for high DPS builds, with some additional risk - for example, if you're farming a certain boss, and your hero progression is such that you can kill it in under ten seconds, you should also be able to deal with the consequences - by surviving the damage, or moving out of the way.

You say that my idea would encourage less interaction, and not more - but, having mandatory minimum activations of these skills would force high damage builds to deal with these activated abilities, instead of being able to burst down the boss in five seconds flat, then walk away completely unscathed (And thus having zero interaction with it).

If they can burst down the boss that quickly, and survive the damage that 10 activations of the skill would cause, then that is a successful and valid interaction, as it would most likely involve some kind of defensive maneuver like activating the skill Rush, good positioning, or a potion or two.

But yes, you are right, in the case of Xi-Pasi Mu, it would make the fight much easier, with reduced interactions for autohit builds. But only in the sense that the current interaction is "broken," and does not really fit with the spirit in which the skill was intended (In my opinion, and if that sentence made any sense at all xD)

My point of view is mainly that of killing bosses that you clearly "can" or "should" be able to beat, like the bosses in the main story - It is required that you slaughter these every time you start a new game, if you want to get to the end. There should be some degree of challenge to them, still :)

And, against the more "meaningful" bosses for your level, if you can't deal with them casting an ability periodically, there is something you need to alter in your approach. (Be it attributes, item build, or strategy)

Hit and run strategies would be preserved, because of, well, mathematical relativism xD Damage per second is still damage per second, regardless of whether this damage is dealt as burst, or more constantly. In the case of Xi-Pasi Mu, it would actually aid hit and run strategies, as your entire team would not be stunned EVERY TIME someone autoattacks the boss (assuming you cannot burst it below the threshold, for some reason).

Obviously, this idea is not meant for the more complex bossfights, or the endgame in general, but rather the "simpler" or almost "miniboss" bossfights, that occur along with the main quest-line.

Finally, while I agree with the hybrid system you propose (and bow to your seniority and expertise ^-^), the idea here seems to be more for an easy fix on how current abilities trigger, rather then a more "ideal" solution which would require what sounds like not only more involved coding, but possibly also the creation of additional abilities from scratch :D

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 Post Posted: Sunday, 13. July 2014, 01:00:52 
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The problem, that I see, is, that there are already tons of moderate builds without impressive damage out there. While I wholeheartedly agree with anything, that makes the game harder, there is not much room for high dps builds now, and there would be even less then (also, due to the medium survivability / damage builds, healers, and in some cases, tanks, have become obsolete).
I will come back to this later.

I also understand your point about actual engagement and how the current system is not working too well, and so long as it is changed for the lower bosses in general, I would not mind, if it was the system you proposed, a cooldown, a chance, or any combination of either.

The hit-and-run builds, that I had in mind, were hit-and-run casting builds, which would be out of the question, if these characters would be permanently rooted due to their high damage output. The options are then to either increase the damage output further, or add some survivability and artificially decrease the damage dealt (holding back instead of spamming spells, simply because a higher damage output will result in defeat).
Mind you, I was also referring to a high number of casts. If there are still 3-5 casts for the entire HP of the boss, not much would be changed. If that number were to be increased, so that it would still provide a challenge and just make it possible for autohit builds instead of actually making it easier as well, the problem, that I have described, exists. I might not have made that clear enough, in which case I apologise.

(The reason, that I thought of this was your example of 10+ fire storms in the Azura bossfight, which has 2, if there is sufficient burst damage)

I see, what you have been trying to add, and this is actually the same way, in which my suggestion started out. However, I believe, that coding a damage counter (I am unaware how much of this actually needs coding and what parts are available as preset functions) might be more work than it seems. The more complex systems could of course be copied from the higher bossfights, which would then only need to be adjusted in values and used spells.
Thinking about this, the reason, that the spells of lower bosses have not been changed, might be, because they are still coded in GUI, but I would need Robbepop to confirm these speculations.


Going back to what I started in the first paragraph, a main problem is, that certain aspects of the game are too easy or have no limit at all.
I partially pointed this out in the Cronos fight, where builds lacking dps can eventually be overwhelmed by summons. The number of summons also increases after 50% HP in the Merati fight, but this can still be solved by simply using more players.

The impression, that I get from common character builds, is that it starts to feel like a single player RPG. Everything can be done alone, the community has become very small, so people have to help themselves. They end up with an all-round character, that can survive anywhere and still deal enough damage to beat the regeneration of bosses, in most builds with a tremendous number of potions.

I have noticed this problem a long time ago, but I have never mentioned it in an individual topic, because I do not have sufficient plans to fix it. The way, that most people seem to play the game, they have more trouble beating the regenerations than staying alive. This results in a simple paradigm:
They may not always win, but they cannot die.

In essence, this makes the game boring.

And I might have suggested to simply raise the difficulties, but there are too many adept players, who would just complain about it being too hard or impossible, especially with the lack of a large community "forcing them" to play alone.

This is, why I work so hard on countering points, that would decrease the use of high damage dealers. I have watched the game become easier and easier over years, and the systems and balance improves, but the characters and the gameplay simply become mediocre.

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 Post Posted: Sunday, 13. July 2014, 11:09:49 
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I definitely see where you're coming from, especially since I just reset 40 agi from my ranger, in order to make things a little easier, farming hell :)

But, I have always treated the solo game from the perspective that dps is the main focus of your progression, with enough ehp to survive as a secondary goal (and being supplemented by adequate defensive skill usage; all classes have these)

(Otherwise, as you said, the game gets very boring very fast. However, in the rare occasions I get to play a team game, I will jump at the chance to play a hard tank or support build (The priest in particular!))

I certainly see how the system I prescribed would make endgame bossfights much more difficult for these characters (both physical and magical), since yes, the boss's ability would proc many more times (then just at 75%, 50% and 25%), making it much much harder to solo.

However I believe that in the new system, while both high dps and moderate dps builds will eventually kill it, the reward for your skill in surviving as a high damage build will translate into faster clear time of the boss. (And thus having to deal with less procs overall). This reward is the same in both trigger systems, though - the only difference being overall boss difficulty. (Although in the case of Xi-Pasi Mu, it would fix the difficulty ;) Remember, you can cast spells while entangled (even movement spells like Rush); this is the current method for defeating him)

But yes, you make very good points, and I am inclined to agree with you, with respect to basically every bossfight that would be considered "after," say, Draconis :D

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