Register    Login    Forum    Search    FAQ

Shoutbox

Board index » The Game » The Heroes » Mentalist




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post Posted: Saturday, 19. January 2013, 02:17:06 
Offline
Level 10

Joined: Wednesday, 06. April 2011, 03:34:32
Posts: 45
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
I want to start off by thanking those who have done character guides, and recommend
that readers refer to those first. My aim is to channel the essence of each character, to find their uniqueness, and gather where they are headed - based on my thought and outside input (feel free to post on this with your contributions).

(This is as of 1.33)

The addition of the Mentalist has been a refreshing take to the use of mana. I think this idea is a lot of fun. In the past with my own map, I have experimented with mana-based characters, who rely on their survival through the means of mana at a detriment to other things, mainly hp. So upon my return to GOH, this was the first character I wanted to try.

And I want to use “buzz” words/terms to get at what I feel the Mentalist is about (in no particular order): mind, focus, concentration, psychic, control, more mental-less physical, managing mana expert, etc

To interpret these words into narrative:
I see the Mentalist as a master of the mind. She can play in the forefront as a leader of the attack and a shield for others (Dr. X from X-Men style) or in the back launching psychic blasts while providing solid assistance to her allies in multiple ways, but especially with managing their mana. Ego or no ego, the Mentalist is a formidable foe.

And to take a general (not intended to be in-depth) look at her current skills (courtesy of Masterja’s guide—which so many people ripped on, but the guy seriously knows what he is talking about :ugeek: and is a leading professor in the understanding of the Mentalist) and add my assessment:

3a. Overloading
This spell is one of few spells that restore mana when cast on friendly unit or self. Mana heal is dependant on STR of hero. It can also be cast on enemy to deal some nice damage based on INT.

-Incredibly versatile. Mana heal dependent on strength seems to support the idea of another build besides intel, but it still seems sketchy.

3b. Mana Explosion
Just beautifull! The spell of mass destruction deals 70 + 70% INT as damage to all enemies in huge area every second. This spell is a must whenever visiting areas with mass amount of creeps, such as Orc camp, or maybe Dragon cave. The bad side is – unless you aren’t rich, and cannot afford many, many potions, do not get this spell. It wastes 5% of your maximum mana per second to be maintained.

-Rad idea. Hemorrhaging mana for mass damage. I do not mind how it rings of the Warrior’s Concentration, because both skills are awesome and to play them require just that—skill.

3c. Mana Blade
When activated, you receive 8% of your current mana as damage on every attack for 10 seconds. This spell is very usefull when you aren’t the one who is attacked (since your mana is deained fast with mana shield on), or when you don’t have mana shield. Late game, when you have all teal items, you will have about 8000 Mana (on semi-INT build), which adds around 1000 damage per attack! Early game, this spell is useless.

Cool idea that can rip damage. Need to rack up the mana/mana regen (probably the steal variety) in order to make it effective.

3d. Mana Shield
The most beautifull spell avaliable to Mentalist. This is bread and butter spell, that should be used AT ALL TIMES. There are of course, some cases, such as Mana blade build, where Mana shield only lowers your potential… However, in pure INT builds, at end of game, you will have around 8000+ mana, means 16.000 effective hp with mana shield on! With endless potion in inventory, you will be invulnerable, and will be able to tank Chronos’ meteors no problem!

-Essential. It is really the foundation of the Mentalist. It really is fun to manage life and damage even if you do not think so.

3e. Shaping
Quite interesting spell! It creates a shadow of yourself, that acts like any other summon, and has its health proportional to amount of STR of hero, damage proportional to AGI of hero, and when it dies, or time is up, it deals AoE damage proportional to INT of hero. This spell will be only spell that is used at all times, regardless of LVL, items or role. It can help tanks tank better, DPS-ers deal more damage, and INT’s survive and damage enemies also.

-Multi-purpose brilliancy.

3f. Reserve
A spell for AGI mentalists. It deals damage based on AGI, and should mentalist’s mana be lesser than 50%, it deals 50% bonus damage to enemy. Quite good in boss fights, since it also stuns for few seconds. All in all, its only usefull for AGI mentalists.

-Good skill for non-intel builds.

3g. Riftwalk
Indeed, Elemental mage has nice Explo spell, so does Ranger, but both of those have more than 5 seconds cooldown, and medicore range. Mentalist on other hand, has Riftwalk spell that has 3 seconds cooldown, semi-short range, and deals damage based on INT. I think its best out of the blinks ingame because of its short cooldown. Also, before some serious fight, cast this spell few times to rack up few stacks, since more you cast it, higher damage you will deal!

-The Mentalist’s form of evasion. Glad it is not purely evasive, in that it does good damage.

3h. Arcane Furry
A passive spell, adds 10 STR and INT to hero per 11% of mana missing, up to 60 STR and INT. It is quite good passive for any build that has Mana shield and Mana explosion in it, since those waste mana quite fast. This spell works pretty nice - when you run out of mana, you will have 600 extra HP to tank a bit, and some mana regen (60 int) as well.

-Useful passive, but it feels like something is lacking. Not sure of the effectiveness of adding intel for lost mana, as they kind of cancel each other out, except for the slight damage boost to intel based skills.

3i. Power-Up
Power-up is similar to Arcane Furry, except you get AGI and INT when you cast spell. If used in combination with arcane furry and some castable spells, you end up with having +60 AGI and STR, and +120 INT for some time! That is not small amount I tell ye’!

-Useful passive in line with the idea of the Mentalist. Maybe it could use some adjustment or coordination with another skill to make this “build-up” more dangerous in a “releasing” fashion (no connotation intended).

3j. Meditation (removed)
Meditation is bread and butter spell. It increases mana of Mentalist by 500 in end. It is not really that much, but its quite a nice passive that allows you to tank 1000 more damage with Mana Shield, or cast 3 more spells before going down (when theyre lvl 10)

Arcane Sphere (inserted)

-Did not get to play with Meditation, and Arcane Sphere is really a different bird. That being said, I like the idea of Arcane Sphere, but do not feel that it is doing what it needs to be (not sure where the skill is headed, as I could see it as a mass explosion or a guided missile).

3k. Arcane Barrage
This fancy spell shoots AGI dependant amount of missles, dealing INT dependant amount of damage to first enemy they come in contact with. Nothing really special about this spell, but its usefull to AGI/INT builds.

-Good skill for agil builds.

3L. Mindbreak
Ahh, we come to mindbreak at long last! Its your spamable skill that deals lots of damage dependant on AGI, and refils you whole lot of mana dependant on STR. This spell allows you to tank a lot more with STR/INT build. It also comes with a hefty silence that can be used in PvP!

-One of my favorites. It fits her profile and warns all who oppose to stand back!

So the future of the Mentalist lies in the adjustment of these current skills. Certain ones need more “focus” when it comes to their angle and I think there needs to be less overlapping of current abilities (discussed in the next paragraph). I think that she needs to be more active in helping her allies by providing mana regen and/or protection. While I am not critical about build versatility, it could use some refinement for those who do care.

With that in mind, here are some specific and non-specific suggestions:
Increase her support role. She can provide an aura of mana regen (and please higher than the lame mana regen items of the low “.xx” and more on the caliber of a manasteal). As for protecting her allies, it is difficult without stepping on the toes of the Seraph or Priest/Monk. It would be cool to have a shield that absorbs all the damage done to herself and allies within an area of effect (preferably visible to other players) and then returning all that damage to all the enemies within a larger area of effect. Maybe some idea to make the enemy to “stand down” or do less damage could provide that protection. Some sort of mind control ability begs itself, kind of a charm or temporary control of a unit without stepping on the Necromancer’s toes. For Overloading, though unorthodox, maybe mana heal dependent on strength and agility combined might support build diversity. As for the overlapping hinted to in the previous paragraph, Overloading, Mana Explosion, and Mindbreak all step on each others toes. I love the skill names, so maybe diversify what they do a bit more.

Thank you for taking the time to read this post and for your input. Let us all make a cooperative effort to make this a map worth playing for a long time!


Top 
  
 
 Post Posted: Saturday, 19. January 2013, 14:53:18 
Offline
Administrator
User avatar

Joined: Monday, 28. March 2011, 22:03:02
Posts: 2293
Location: Wc3-Editor^^
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
thank you for your book, I will read it later when I've got time fo dat.

okay I have read it all and have to say that you are right in many points.
I would say that the mentalist is one of the hardest characters to balance for me if it is possible at all.
Her abilities and gameplay are very unique but I see that I still have to replace some of her current abilities to improve her overall gameplay and to create more useful builds in future.

Robbepop


Top 
  
 
 Post Posted: Saturday, 19. January 2013, 18:12:11 
Offline
Level 30

Joined: Sunday, 02. October 2011, 15:37:25
Posts: 743
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
Favorite Class: Elemental Mage
At first I will comment on your interpretation of the name, to which I do not agree entirely. The character in this game does not feel like a mentalist, but rather a kind of arcanist or something like that. For me a mentalist is about controlling and manipulating minds, and that would make sense towards etymology. But that is not a complaint, which would be very important to me, I have simply been disappointed, when I played Mentalist, I stopped doing that, so I do not really care anymore.

A problem with the idea of the mentalist mainly having mana related spells, is that int builds are, what fits best to almost all skills, and others are much less viable. In any other aspect I agree and like having a character with that gameplay in the map, but Mentalist does not have as many different and all well playable builds as e.g. the Elemental Mage (although I feel, that at this point, it has to be said, that for Elemental Mage, there has been done the best job in that aspect).

To your spell descriptions, you might have checked the spells in the version, that you say, that you talk about, before copying and commenting on them. Thus you might have avoided some mistakes like the mixup of agi+int and str+int for Power Up and Arcane Fury, that has been changed.
I would also like to know, how anyone could achieve 8000 mana, because I have never seen it that high, and in most aspects spelldamage/spellpower is more useful than pure int.
What Masterja has said somewhere afair, Mana Shield and Mana Explosion do not work well together.
Also, I will try to organize some of the skills in a useful order:

Agi
Arcane Fury (only one r, but fur is funny too xD)
Reserve
Arcane Barrage (with int)

Str (only playable in hybrid with int or as addition to agi)
Power Up (requires int and spell spamming)
Overloading
Mindbreak (because of the side effect to restore some mana while dealing damage, unlike Overloading, for which you have to choose either)
Mana Shield (useful with more mana restoration from the skills above)
Shaping

Int
Riftwalk (helps low defense builds to get away more easily)
Mana Blade (only builds up good damage with int and sd, so less useful with agi, more useful with Phase Gloves)
Mana Explosion (high int builds up some regeneration against this, as said above, not suggested with Mana Shield)
Arcane Sphere (hard aiming AoE dps skill with a small mana restoration every now and then)

What does also not fit together (as it has been said somewhere else) is, that some spells rely on having low mana (Arcane Fury) and others on high (Mana Blade, Reserve).

So my addition to these suggestions (apart from my comments so far) are, that Mentalist lacks versatility, as crazywolf said it, although he does not care about that so much as I do. One problem, that I see with this, is that new players cannot know, that they are not as free to pick a way to distribute stats as on other characters.

However I agree, that Mentalist could use a greater capability as supporter, especially with something miscellaneous like restoring mana, any way to support allies, that has not been thought of very often, although it is still a useful addition.
Also, as I said in the introduction, I feel that controlling/corrupting minds of enemies or strengthening of those of allies would be a nice addition possibly fitting her name better than her current spells.

_________________
Sometimes it helps to read the brackets after finishing reading the sentence... realising this while writing posts as I seem to use them often.


Top 
  
 
 Post Posted: Sunday, 20. January 2013, 03:20:35 
Offline
Level 10

Joined: Wednesday, 06. April 2011, 03:34:32
Posts: 45
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
@Rob: As always, I appreciate your comments. I think you are doing a great job with the Mentalist. I think that most people know that balance is one of the hardest things to do. And projects like this character (and Guilds of Hyppos as a whole) is always a work in progress :)


Top 
  
 
 Post Posted: Sunday, 20. January 2013, 04:30:55 
Offline
Level 10

Joined: Wednesday, 06. April 2011, 03:34:32
Posts: 45
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
@PSYCHO:
I do not mind a little etymology, as we played around with that before. I see a little where you going, and I am trying to think of a better term than "arcanist." Arcanist seems to lead me to a character possessing a more hidden power, and I see that in a similar grouping to something involving the mind, as much of what goes on in the mind is unknown to mankind and naturally specific thoughts are not visible to others (barring extenuating circumstances).

I agree that the Mentalist is geared towards intel builds, based on the fact that the concept seems to exclusively rely on mana. I think that alternate builds could still use mana/intel, or have abilities/items that can compensate for low intel builds. But then one might argue, if there is true build diversity if you are forced to rely on an attribute? I would say no, but I have also stated that build diversity does not matter that much to me. So I want to know if you are making an argument towards build diversity in general? Because I would love to argue that point, since you seem like you might be sporting to spar on it.

I agree that the build diversity on the Elemental Mage is good (and I am sure we both see other areas for his improvement, but this really is not the place for that).

Anyways, back to the Mentalist for now.

Yes, I got a little sloppy on that copy+paste, as I should have revised Masterja's spell descriptions. It should be noted that they still do not effect my comments below each spell, and that my computer is old and cannot multitask writing and running GOH (it is a memory intensive map) on WC3 (for example, I have to grab my load code before I boot up GOH or WC3 will lag out). I have not gotten mana that high, and definitely see that spell damage items would likely be more useful that the extra mana.

Thank you for your breakdown. And there are a lot of misspellings in the game that make me smile.

The disparity between having low and high mana for certain skills can be a problem, but also can provides compensation as battle wears on a character or fits build diversity/playstyle (i care not to argue this latter, because I think the former is more solid to argue). So it is not completely unjustified design.

Ahh yes, I see now you are in support of build diversity/versatility. And to start the argument, I am going to trash the tangent you mentioned stating that new players cannot freely distribute stats.

I believe firmly, in general, not to walk into a situation blindly, because you are asking for it. As that pertains to games, I always study before I play to make sure 1) if it is worth my time and 2) what would be the most effective way to do so that would also be to my enjoyment. I understand many people prefer to just pick up and play, but it has always seemed like a "fools way" and they have to pay the consequences for doing that. With Guild of Hyppos, the idea of skill point distribution is even a shakier idea, because you can have an NPC (non-playable character) reset skill points to be re-distributed, at a loss of possibly a lot of gold and time, but such is the consequence.

And back to the Mentalist, we both agree that ally support and mind corruption can be very good and natural angles to her.


Top 
  
 
 Post Posted: Sunday, 20. January 2013, 15:19:14 
Offline
Level 30

Joined: Sunday, 02. October 2011, 15:37:25
Posts: 743
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
Favorite Class: Elemental Mage
I agree with almost everything.
Anyway, to build diversity, it is not something I wanted, but what has become the main feature of GoH. I was personally perfectly fine with mainly prespent stats and just some additions as it was in 1.08g times, I just tried to adjust Mentalist to the paradigm, that is created by the other characters.

_________________
Sometimes it helps to read the brackets after finishing reading the sentence... realising this while writing posts as I seem to use them often.


Top 
  
 
 Post Posted: Monday, 21. January 2013, 03:11:11 
Offline
Level 10

Joined: Wednesday, 06. April 2011, 03:34:32
Posts: 45
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
Aw shucks! I was looking to argue that, but you diffused it perfectly.

So to quickly argue with myself:
#1: "Build diversity makes the game more dynamic, so the game is better and more interesting to a lot of people."
#2: "Good point #1. Sounds all positive to me. Although one could definitely have a game where all characters are just individually tailored a certain way and the player would be drawn to a specific type of character(s)."
#1: "Yes that is true #2."
#2: "Also, is not any good concept meant to have a certain angle of play, otherwise why not just have people take a blank model and choose their own abilities."
#1: "You could do this, but balancing and character diversity might suffer. So just give each character a couple angles of play within the concept, and people will still be happy and appreciate the creative genius, ie the current goal"
#2: "Too much flexibility can cheapen the game, so we should stick with the current goal. Plus, you know what happens when you give someone too much rope..."

END SCENE


Top 
  
 
 Post Posted: Monday, 21. January 2013, 17:24:32 
Offline
Level 30

Joined: Sunday, 02. October 2011, 15:37:25
Posts: 743
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
Favorite Class: Elemental Mage
You remind me of Platon, writing fictive dialogues between two people mainly agreeing to each other. Although he had a more rigid form of that, but it goes offtopic xD
Anyway, I see, what you are saying. If all kinds of builds are viable, there are no bad ones, thus the decision for a build does not require any knowledge or skill. I like that approach, but (I apologize for this) here I have to refer to EM again. All attributes as main are viable, but to play the builds to their potential, it requires critical knowledge about items and skillbuilds (e.g. people trying to reach high dps with agi will never come far unless they equip for spelldamage, because the damage of the summons is then much greater than their own could ever become).
I know, that the other heros have been created at the same time, but EM feels like the oldest and most carefully shaped class. Now Mentalist is much newer than all other classes, and it is natural, that builds are not diversified and balanced as they are for other classes. I hope to have change to that somewhen, but as I said in my last post, it is important to the main feature of the game, flexibility and free choice in attributes and skills.
However, balance that might appear to be missing in skills, might also be caused by a lack of item diversity. I have not calculated much and I am not assuming or suggesting anything yet, but I wonder whether agi builds might be more viable, if there were more items that provide a Mentalist with a manabase, so although she would rely on physical damage, she could use abilities like manashield. This is just hypothetical though, but it fits to what other people already have noticed: The gameplay of the Mentalist is somewhat completely different from the other classes in some points. The conception of the items has gone on much longer when Mentalist did not exist, so the items were not designed to be useful to several builds for Mentalist, but one of the builds requires similar items as other builds do for other classes, causing such items to exist already.

_________________
Sometimes it helps to read the brackets after finishing reading the sentence... realising this while writing posts as I seem to use them often.


Top 
  
 
 Post Posted: Monday, 21. January 2013, 19:17:46 
Offline
Level 10

Joined: Wednesday, 06. April 2011, 03:34:32
Posts: 45
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
I did not think I was going to get any more deep analysis after that last post, so I just went into "writer" mode and created a quick "first draft" argument that hit on some main angles.

I do recall reading a greek philosopher who did that, so I assume you mean Platon=Plato. It was funny to read, and yes he was very rigid.

Excellent read, you prove to be quite formidable intellectually :ugeek: (Note: I did not think I would have a use for this symbol again so soon, and think it is quasi-cool ). Indirectly, yes I was implying "If all kinds of builds are viable, there are no bad ones, thus the decision for a build does not require any knowledge or skill." I do not fully believe this, because I do not want to believe that "anything goes" works but in this circumstance, to a large degree, I do.

Agreed about shaping the build diversity over time.

Agreed that that lack of balance can be attributed to item diversity. Interesting hypothetical on a possible agil build to the Mentalist with future item support--I agree that the conditions that have previously been brought up by others lend itself to develop this angle.

"The conception of the items has gone on much longer when Mentalist did not exist, so the items were not designed to be useful to several builds for Mentalist, but one of the builds requires similar items as other builds do for other classes, causing such items to exist already." I love the way this was presented, even if it is not entirely original.


Top 
  
 
 Post Posted: Saturday, 26. January 2013, 12:53:17 
Offline
Level 9

Joined: Wednesday, 19. September 2012, 23:33:39
Posts: 41
Has thanked: 0 time
Have thanks: 0 time
Favorite Class: Warrior
@crazywolf777 please continue your work on character analysis. I want to see your opinion about warrior.


Top 
  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 11 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

Board index » The Game » The Heroes » Mentalist


 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron