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 Post subject: Future of the Assassin
 Post Posted: Sunday, 08. July 2012, 18:24:21 
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In this thread I'd like to hear what do you think of the assassin and what skills would you like change in the future.

Just from the Assassin - Favourite Abilities you can see that there are a lot of skills not being used ( Shuriken, Spell Crit, Backstab, Heart Stab and even Daggerhail), most of those skills are usually used in a INT assassin build which I no longer fin viable because a lot of those skills got nerfed. Personally I LOVE to play INT and would like to see a comeback of it but I just can't see that happening.
Right now the only viable build for assassins is AGI(usually it's something like Evasion, Battle gas, Illu attack, Bloody lust and the last 2 skills depend on what you want to do) you, could go STR to tank but it's not that good.

When someone makes an AGI assassin they make him as a right clicker and they don't want their skills to do single target damage, they have their normal attacks to do that. Shuriken sound good on paper, you kill a mob with it and it returns all of your mana spent, but usually your surrounded by 3+ mobs and it gets difficult to do that. And if you use it just for the damage I think it would lower your damage output, but even if it doesn't it drains your mana and since your casting you are not attacking ergo you are not mana/life stealing.

We also have no way of dealing aoe damage when going AGI. Sure we got Wrath of Shadows but it's not that reliable. You could change the damage modifiers on Dagger hail and Smoke screen to AGI and reduce the overall damage by ~30%. Or remake shuriken to something similar to Troll Warlords axes from dota.
One little thing also make Illu attack every 5th attack since I think that our illusions are not that much stronger than frost elementals and we only get 10%.

I have not idea what to do with Heart stab and Backstab, but i'd like to see them changed too.

As you can see I'm not that creative when it comes to making skills, but I'd like to see some good ideas from others. :D


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 Post Posted: Sunday, 08. July 2012, 19:06:49 
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Hiho,

as you might have seen it is difficult to form great abilities for the assassin.
you can't just make some AoE spells because that would break the whole assassin gameplay.
an assassin is a hero adapted in slaying creep by creep and not a horde at the same time.
perhaps some of her abilities have got a too high cooldown and shuriken hits not precise enough to make it useful
but the main idea behind shuriken is a fine lasthitting spell.
the main idea behind backstab is an initiating spell after you used stealth or in a team where you got a tank.
i can tell you the idea behind every spell and what makes it actually useful with its pros and cons.

furthermore the poll results may be outdated as I've buffed all useless abilities to create a bigger variety.
player now should give the new balance a try before saying that I just nerfed the assassin (their currently used skillset) a lot!

as for me I want to remake some broken assassin abilities such as spellcrit and evasion because they are not what I wanted to achieve with them.
spell crit is useless or overpowered and evasion is just another passive with boring effects ...
illu attack has only 10% compared to the elemental mage's frost summon because assassin is basically based on agility while elemental mage is not.
so with elemental mage you don't have got many other cool abilities which deal tons of damage but as assassin you have them when skilled on agility.
as you can see you sometimes have to see the spells at the global view to all available abilities for a hero before balancing it.
at the moment it is too early to say if frost summon is overpowered or not - sure it is strong but in the end a frost summon isn't as strong as an assassin illusion. besides that I want to remake the illusion system, too. ;-)

Robbepop


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 Post Posted: Sunday, 08. July 2012, 19:14:28 
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Assassin cant be matched with any other hero. You say Assassin is adept at killing 1 creep. Thats actually not true - if we take elemage for example:

Elemage has mostly AoE spells, each dealing 2x Attribute damage on lvl 10, and hits many enemies.
Assassin has mostly single target spells, each dealing 2x Attribute damage on lvl 10, and hits 1 enemy.

How is this balanced? Elemage (and Necro, and Priest, and Ranger, and Mentalist, and Warrior, and even Seraph) are far more powerful in this aspect. That is one of main reasons why people dont like assassin. Its not what its suporsed to be. She needs to be single enemy and boss slayer.

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 Post Posted: Sunday, 08. July 2012, 20:34:36 
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I agree, I remember that we had a discussion that the name assassin doesn't really fit the feel of the skills. We are more of illusionists than assassins. And I understand that. But assassin is the most UP class in the game. We don't deal enough single target nor aoe damage. Our survivability is actually good if we look at it that way, since assassin are know for being paper.


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 Post Posted: Sunday, 08. July 2012, 21:06:50 
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well, dealing 2x agi damage to single targets is balanced if you think about what agility attribute is.
with agility the assassin is able to deal damage with her attacks ASWELL as with her abilities.
compared to that elemental mage has got only one source of dealing damage.
that's why all ranger AoE spells are based on int aswell as all assassin AoE spells. :P

in fact THAT what you disliked is causing a good balance if you think about it.^^

Robbepop


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 Post Posted: Sunday, 08. July 2012, 21:11:00 
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Yes, but INT is needed to cast even AGI spells. So look at it like this:

Elemage - 310 INT, 6000 mana, can perma-cast spells
Assassin - 310 INT, 500 mana, can cast 2 spells before chilling

Permacasting beats 2 spells + autoattack anyday, let alone the fact that Elemage has AoE spells. If we get INT / mana items, we are wasting killing potential that elemage gets at same time.

And even if we forget the fact that assassin can't cast like elemage, there is a matter of autoattack. Elemage is Range, therefore safer in any way then assassin. Assassin heavily relies on lifesteal to get her through, and wasting time to cast spell is not something assassin can afford, especially if she doesnt deal even close damage to that of Elemage with them.

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 Post Posted: Sunday, 08. July 2012, 23:41:11 
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Heya

Regarding AoE vs Single Target(ST) spells (not only the assassin).

Per defintion AoE spell have a couple of advantages over ST spells.

All single target spells require targeting on enemies = a high Actions Per Minute (APM) cost.

Comparing AoE with AoE they can work in a few different ways: AoE size, Aim at ground, Emanating from the player, etc.
However all AoE spells still require less APM than ST spells, even the AoE spells that you have to place on the ground is easier to just toss out there than to target with ST spells, meaning less APM / player skill need to be invested for a greater effect.

Now the the more important part, DPS.
Since you rarely fight only one mob at the time (even chronos summons mobs) and if everything else is the same between an AoE and ST spell - the AoE spell will simply just out DPS any ST spell (same attack on 3 mobs instead of 1 = x3 dps).

The only playingfield where ST spells are equal to AoE spells are solitary boss-fights.
Counting all the different types of fights you can have in GoH those solitary boss-fights are few and far between.

So everything included, (and assuming they have the same stats) AoE spells are pretty much superior to ST spells in every way possible.

If spells are ment to be balanced (and I believe that's the goal) ST spells has to have another advantage compared to AoE spells.
This adantage can come in different forms, some examples:
Reduced mana cost
Reduced cooldown
Increased effect (%slow, stun etc.)
Increased damage

[Disclaimer] I'm not sure how much consideration that has already been put into balancing ST spells with this in mind.

I would suggest that the way to balance ST spells would be to give them a DPS advantage (cooldown / damage) or Effect advantage over AoE spells and not just reduced mana cost.

What do you think?


Cheers
ZG


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 Post Posted: Monday, 09. July 2012, 20:46:56 
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Favorite Class: Elemental Mage
maybe some u guys find me offensive or stupid just my idea tought
but assasin don't lose that much to Elemental Mage Why?
because assasin is ST and she has 3 skill blink strike , back stab and throw shuriken and one thing he still have spell crit when u count it better actually assasin can deal more damage with her spell crit also with bloody lust he can quickly restore her health while the enemy is still in the effect of battle gas when u equip with nice or good item that fit your gameplay actually for bossing assasin can easily kill anybosses and with some nice tanker and buffer assasin can be even more deadly with blessing from seraph and roar from warrior that make assasin ability more power with illu attack and evasion that can bring out even more illusion

sorry btw for the bad english not very good with english :D

oh yeah also i forgot the spell stealth she got 4 agi spell and with one spell crit and battle gas or heart stab that heal him or make enemy miss its attack he still can restore more health and mana in the mean time also with spell crit to doble the attack damage of her skill


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